There’s rot in judiciary because corrupt judges are not adequately punished – Prof Agu

Professor Agu Gab Agu is on sabbatical at Alex Ekwueme Federal University, Ndufu – Alike, Ikwo (AE-FUNAI), Ebonyi State. He is a lawyer, his wife is a lawyer, his children are laawyers and they are all married to lawyers too. In other words, his is a family of lawyers.

In this chat with Saturday Sun, Agu acknowledged that there are some shady characters operating in the temple of justice, stressing that books should be thrown at such people. He also made a case for state police, private universities and death penalty, among others.

By Henry Umahi

You read other courses before venturing into law. What happened?

Actually, I have always liked law, but there was no career guidance as it is today. But when I had a stronger and firmer focus, I decided to get into it. When I finished secondary school, I read marketing and it was profitable. But all along, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. So, at the opportune time, I decided to do it full time, not a matter of going to evening school because it was available then. You can be working and reading but I decided to go back to school full time.

You’re a lawyer, your wife is a lawyer, your children are lawyers and they are all married to lawyers. Was it by design?

I didn’t force anybody on the choice of course to read.  You know, some of these things have a way of catching up. I know I didn’t force anybody to become a lawyer. Of course, I was not instrumental to their choice of spouses. So, even if I had influenced their choice of career, I didn’t influence the choice of career for their wives. I think it’s nature at work.

But I think it’s good. In Italy, for instance, you find out that some people or families are interested in something like police work. After two or three generations, children from such family are not subjected to any interview. They walk in because they have shown the track record of loyalty to the country, integrity and some level of competence. So, their children benefit from that.  You see situations where you have families that branch into a particular area and make the best of it.

The judiciary is accused of fostering political crises in the country. What will be your take on that?

You know and I know as Christians that even when Jesus Christ had as few as 12 disciples, one of them broke the ranks and decided to follow a cause that was not good. I’m talking about Judas. So, in every society, you have people who are not properly suited for what they are doing.

The judiciary is not one family and not one person. It is a conglomerate of people coming from different and diverse families with different orientation and upbringing. So, we still have people who have a carryover of what they had in their family. In the villages, there are families who are known to be thieves. That is why we are calling for community police. There are people who steal on impulse and they know them in the villages and keep them at bay.

So, in the judiciary, there are some very dark characters who are filtering in. We still have shining lights there but there are still others who are doing dirty jobs. In all, it has not fallen too bad that there is no hope. But there is a big need to cleanse the judiciary. Some of them are not living up to their oath. The issue of conflicting judgements could have been avoided if we are more firm and disciplined.

I believe you are saying that the judiciary should be reformed. How should it be done?

We all are partaking in the issue of justice delivery. Those who give bribe are not less culpable because it takes two to tangle. There must be somebody who will induce the judge. First of all, the society should be educated not to do that. Second, those who see them, the whistle blowers should make it loud and be courageous to stand by their word. And those who the complaints are made to should stand very strongly and throw the books at those who are wrong.

What I see is that those who are wrong have not been punished; there is not much sanction against those who have gone astray. If those who have gone astray have been punished enough, I think many people would have kept away from wrongdoing. Those who are in charge are not doing enough. There should have been serious action to push out those who are bad or are even close to being bad. It’s unfortunate that in this age and time, some judiciary officers are falsifying their age. Maybe they want to die in office or what. It’s very pathetic. It is not something that should be condoned. What manner of justice will you deliver if you falsify your age? First of all, you don’t want people to know who you are. I’m sure if much stronger and firmer approach is taken towards dealing with offenders, people will sit and do the right thing.

Can you compare the level of training lawyers get now with what was obtainable in the past?

The standard in the law school is improving every day. We never had so much opportunity of the kind of technological advancement now whereby most of the lecture notes are conveyed virtually. People go to platforms and do things. Before now, things were manually done, but not anymore. The students are accessible to much knowledge.

The point is that sometimes one begins to wonder whether law should be made a second degree course so that some of the students will be able to appreciate life or understand what the society is all about and be in a position to apply the law to it. If you have a knowledge of what the society is about with some level of maturity and then being exposed to other discipline, it will help a lot in your approach and delivery of the law.

The judgement written by Nigerian judges are sometimes confusing. Is it not possible for them to write in readable English language like it is done in other climes?

It was like that before now and even in UK. If you look at most of the judgements written by William Blackstone, they had so much Latin and all that. But there is a kind of fusion with modern trend and it is becoming readable and members of the public can follow. I think the idea then was to make law something that can be read by only the people who are knowledgeable, who belong to the profession. But that has changed everywhere. Judges now write lucidly. Even the judges of repute in Nigeria like Chukwudifu Oputa, Nnaemeka Agu and others were noted to be lucid and very proficient. Their writings were very clear.

How would you describe the state of the nation at this time?

We are in difficult times. Things are not the way we had expected them to be. And probably because they were a lot that this government is doing which are not palatable. One is not in government to understand the difficulties they encounter but I think they can do better. Things are bad. Things are difficult. The people in the villages are suffering; the masses are suffering. The high cost of fuel has spiral effect on other things in the market. Things are just difficult; there is no other way to put it. But we believe that we will overcome and we are trying to do just that.

Do you support the idea of state police?

Of course, yes. I support even local government area police. I don’t think there is anything wrong in that. Some say the governors will use it to pursue personal or political agenda. Is the president immune to that?  Does he not have personal or political agenda? Or is he a saint? The good thing is that we are in a democracy and you cannot occupy any office for more than eight years. If you misuse the police while in office, it can be used against you when you leave.

We should allow the culture of institutions being strong. They should be allowed to be on their own. They should be allowed to carry out their mandate as provided by the constitution or regulations that set them up. The state police is so good because people will be employed in areas where they come from. They know everybody. In the villages, everybody knows everybody. The people know the bad ones. If anything happens, they know the first place to look at. And no thief wants to be caught. It will help this country more than somebody policing an unknown terrain. He may not understand the language and other impediments. I support state police but that would not stop the idea of federal police also.

How would you react to the proliferation of private universities across the country?

What is needed is regulation. When I was in the university, there were about five or six of them. Those who don’t meet the requirements will wait and some people waited for about six or seven years before getting admission into the university. I think it is a better thing now that people who can afford it will get a place and have education. There is no need straight-jacketing everybody into one place in the name of federal university. There were no state universities before but now we have them and private ones. Anyone that distinguishes itself will be followed. Some of the big name universities abroad are not owned by government. Even though the fees are high in Nigeria, you will see that some highly rated universities are owned by private or faith-based groups. They have the finance to get the best teachers and people are really paying. The teachers are paid and they do their job; there is no laissez-faire attitude. So, there is nothing bad in having private universities provided there is reasonable regulation. That is where NUC should be reinforced. There should be standard. Some of the private universities are not really up to what is expected.  In most civilized climes, you will find about three universities on a street and they are noted as quality universities. Our idea here is that a university will cover a whole village; it is not supposed to be so but if it can, that’s okay. But the point is that the things that are supposed to be in a university should be there – the lecturers and necessary equipment.

Nigeria is a religious nation, yet the level of corruption is alarming. Do you support the introduction of death penalty for looters of the economy?

There is nothing wrong with that. That is what saved Indonesia and the rest of Asian Tigers. Nobody wants to die. Anybody who is stealing wants to enjoy it. So, if he knows he will die if caught, that may restrain him from doing that. But that may not even solve the problem. There are people who believe that they can always manoeuvre any system. But that would be a deterrent. But the fear is whether it will be used as witch-hunting. There should be great sanctions that are deterrent to the issue of corruption in this country because it has gone beyond the ordinary.

What is the way out of the killings and sit-at-home order every Monday in the South East?

The South East leaders have begged the president to release Nnamdi Kanu. Maybe that will do the magic. Let us try that and see what happens. You don’t lose anything by giving him a conditional bail; bail is usually conditional. It depends on the terms of the bail. So that he can come out and talk to the people. No matter what you say, he is a very important factor in the issue of the restiveness in the South East.

How would you describe your growing up days?

It was challenging in the sense that very early in life, it was very rosy. Middle course, there were challenges; I lost my parents and things were no longer as they were. But thank God because time has taken care of most of these things. God has been very faithful.

How do you relax?

I am a sports man, so to say. But of late I have not been very active. For many years, I was in the tennis federation. I’m still chairman of Enugu State Tennis Association. I play tennis, I play golf and I socialise to the extent I can. One has to mix with people and know what is happening.

You are also involved in community activities. What is your level of involvement?

I am very much involved in community activities because I believe in that. Everybody must identify with where he is coming from. If you don’t identify with your roots, it will be difficult in giving out your best. That place you call home, you must always protect it and do everything you can to make it better. All my life, I have tried to be part of what is desirable in my community. We have a parliament, which we call congress and I am the speaker. It has representatives from every family and every age grade etc. We have been making laws and doing things that will make my village work. I thank God for that. In all, I am a village man.

Do you know how to cook?

Yes. But I don’t go near there much now. That is the jurisdiction of my wife. I am not sure she will be happy to see me going to cook. It means that I am indicting her. Earlier in life, I was doing that. I did my NYSC in Calabar and all that period I was cooking my meals. I was cooking before I got married and I enjoyed it.

What are your favourite books?

I like reading autobiographies, especially of people who have offered something to the world or people I consider great. You need to know why and how they did certain things. I enjoy it.

What is your advice to young people at these challenging times?

They should have faith, perseverance and work hard. There is no substitute or alternative to working hard. You have to continue working hard to sustain what you have or to improve on where you are. You have to be focused. There are lots of distractions for the youths and lots of things heading for the worse. When we were in the university, we used 25 kobo to eat good meals. On Sundays, we eat large portions of chicken and we enjoyed it. I am not sure we can ever get back to that. They should remain focused and make the best out of the situation they find themselves.